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Summoner Hopes?

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(Going to just start a topic on all classes so people can have a central topic to just dump their hopes into if devs want to skim them for ideas)

 

As someone who's never played Summoner before in any game, please give your hopes here!

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just gonna write things i would like to have in the summoner class and mention all things that all other games makes it wrong in my opinion!
1: does not use a normal staff-wand since would be pretty standard/cliche where all magic classes uses both of those weapons!.
you guys can go with Book style summoning weapon, or a handcrafted  magic gloves jewel/orb for a more minimalist detail
example of magic gloves style weapon spacer.png
2: being able to handle more than one summon at the same time(as full time summon), (since again other cliche in all summon types games only allows for one summon at the same time), so we can COMBO summons and skills making all the gameplay more complex! and of course both summons should affects each other in their interactions of skills/buffs and also the player can not have all the "types" because of talents-skill points and so on.
EXAMPLE: two "normal" summons  that we can ALSO sacrifice for  a time limited ultimate summon  for players that likes to play with summon + using base  skill/magic of the class itself! thus having diversity multiple and builds as well going in advancement for example of:
2.1:full summoner that have mainly talents and skills focused on two or more summons at the same time!
2.2: or a summoner who likes to use-sacrifice his summons for a super BUFF  and uses his OWN magic skills or play with ultimate summon+ his own magic skills at the same time!
3: (i know i already said this before  but is good to mention again) As advancement class we could go multiples paths where one focus on the base two summons (always maintaining two summons) and the other allows for a ultimate summon+magic skills from the caster path for players that want that type of "wizard + pet gameplay because sometimes you just want a summon but also to kickass yourself so a sacrificing type summoner x buff is a good option )
of course if the games have more than two advancement paths, we can always go for a complete ultimate summon type; a multiple summon path; full sacrifice summon for selfbuff and use his own skills path; and why not a fully healing type summons path as well, since only have cleric as healing is boring!.
each path have his own DIFFERENT GAMEPLAY STYLE but all of them in the SUMMONING LORE and would be a blast to play without doubt.

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You are talking real business M4rcosR3is xD, I like it.

Let's see if the creators can implement some of your ideas since sometimes it is difficult to transfer the theory to a practical situation.

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I always go towards a summoner in games that I play! So I really hope they can include it in this game.

Some really good takes on summoners in my opinion are from City of Heroes and Age of Conan.

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31 minutes ago, GNDuke said:

You are talking real business M4rcosR3is xD, I like it.

Let's see if the creators can implement some of your ideas since sometimes it is difficult to transfer the theory to a practical situation.

i hope they can go with something like that but hey is not the end of the world if they keep the main staff as well since creating a new weapon branch would be a hell of work but them they could go and do something like what i'm gonna write below:
i have been playing mmo for years now, going close to 20, and i really felt that todays game, most of them says no p2w and things like that but in the end goes back on their word because cosmetic alone does not sell enough and i felt that this is just because they have not gone in deep enough with it.
for example what i talked before about book-hands summoning: hell they can go staff main weapon for summoner too; but why not make a SKIN with different weapon like the book summoning and magical gloves skins? and sell them, lot of people would buy!.
i know some would say about animation and so much more, but why not take this as opportunity? like make for example a simple animation for a gloves summon SKIN all of them, really simple, but sell special animation for skills separately as well, and this i does not mean just for one weapon!, but for all of them, people would buy without doubt just think the last mmorpg you played, and remember the MAIN SKILL you use, how cool would be if there was different types of animations/colors for that skill? so everyone can have their own match they like and would be a boom, even more because no one would ever buy "only" one SKIN, players would buy even if they just changed the color of the skill, just because why not? is different and people like to be different than the others.
for example the rogue, as we have seen the preview rogues uses dual dagger, but how cool would be if there was a katana style WEAPON SKIN or dual claw style gloves (wow shaman style claw style weapons) that you can buy, even more since you would be able to buy new  special animations for them and the old "standard" dual daggers skills too.
and yeah this would cost money in animation but is not the same money that must be spend in other places to make a game viable, even more since as said they could put weapon with standard simple animation "only" and also sell animation all separately for each special skill and so on!, would be EPIC.

Edited by M4rcosR3is
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One thing I am looking forward in Oath is exclusiveness between the classes in the aspects of combat, abilities, and appearance. You have mentioned ideas that could help build this sense of uniqueness. 

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It'll be interesting to see a couple different kinds of summoners, something that's more connected to nature like that of the Warden in ESO and then something that's more sinister like that of the Necromancer like in the GW series!

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I hope a lot of emphasis is put on the pet. Having played summoner in FFXIV (which is the worst btw), I really hope for an MMO where summoner is done right.

Because, a summoner isn't a summoner if it's just a mage with a pet.

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Yo what about the idea of being able to control the movements of the summons and control their abilities kind of like a puppet, that would be very call and it means it would be a hard class to play but really good once mastered.

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On 6/16/2019 at 8:04 AM, Dogma said:

Yo what about the idea of being able to control the movements of the summons and control their abilities kind of like a puppet, that would be very call and it means it would be a hard class to play but really good once mastered.

So kind of like a Puppet Master from Naruto? That would be sick, and hard to master the movements of 2+ summons. They could then have a squishy body, to balance their puppet numbers. Maybe at higher ranks, or even an archetype where they "wear" their minions similar to how Sasori did with his puppets and instead of focusing on 2+ minions they could customize their own minion to a balanced extent (these could be made out of wood  and move their way up to steel or even harder with expansions, kind of making the summoner feel like a off-tank) it could be an Armor set they make/achieve and only specific to that specialization. 

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On 6/16/2019 at 9:04 AM, Dogma said:

Yo what about the idea of being able to control the movements of the summons and control their abilities kind of like a puppet, that would be very call and it means it would be a hard class to play but really good once mastered.

I much prefer this to the static gameplay of standard summoners, and would imo meld much better into the action-oriented combat the designers have in mind. It would be cool if it could be like witch/wizard from bdo, specifically how triggering an attack makes your summons do an ability as well (though obviously more focused on the pet rather than the summoner), thus making summons feel really like an extension of the summoner's will, rather than just a standard npc that autos until you click on an ability or autocasts. That being said though, it'd still be great to retain the ability to have your pet act like an auto-attack mob as well... Maybe it can be set so if you have more than one summon, you could have your abilities synergize with it while the rest act like mobs? Have the cd of summoning them in-combat raised so summoners would have to choose between keeping them out and possibly having them die randomly when not being used and waiting for a long re-summon cd, or hold off on summoning them until you need them, but at the same time losing precious time to do abilities and being more vulnerable. Idk, at this point my brain is firing in all sorts of directions, but that's the great thing about summoner classes! So much potential. 

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Summoner having a pet(s) is quite traditional approach (and there is nothing wrong with that). However, maybe there could also have a chance to call a temporary creature, which is a more like a spell rather than pet... Meaning, maybe you can for exanple summon a dragon, which flies one or few times over the battleground and burns the targeted area. Or maybe some of the summons will posses the summoner and player can that way control the summoned creature. There can be variations between permanent and temporary posses.

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Already posted this in another thread:
I hope they start out summoning simple spirits then later branching of into:

- Necromancer (Summoning the Dead, Bone Spears, Ghosts, Skeletons, Graves, Dirt,...) -> More of a pure DPS

- Natural Summoner (Beasts, Plants, Entangles,...)  -> DPS with a lot of utlility

- Spiritualist/ Fusioner (Summons Stronger Spirits, Imbuing allies with them, Fusing yourself with them gaining new skillsets depending on spirit, ...) -> DPS/Support/Utility

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On 5/23/2019 at 6:12 AM, M4rcosR3is said:

just gonna write things i would like to have in the summoner class and mention all things that all other games makes it wrong in my opinion!
1: does not use a normal staff-wand since would be pretty standard/cliche where all magic classes uses both of those weapons!.
you guys can go with Book style summoning weapon, or a handcrafted  magic gloves jewel/orb for a more minimalist detail
example of magic gloves style weapon spacer.png
2: being able to handle more than one summon at the same time(as full time summon), (since again other cliche in all summon types games only allows for one summon at the same time), so we can COMBO summons and skills making all the gameplay more complex! and of course both summons should affects each other in their interactions of skills/buffs and also the player can not have all the "types" because of talents-skill points and so on.
EXAMPLE: two "normal" summons  that we can ALSO sacrifice for  a time limited ultimate summon  for players that likes to play with summon + using base  skill/magic of the class itself! thus having diversity multiple and builds as well going in advancement for example of:
2.1:full summoner that have mainly talents and skills focused on two or more summons at the same time!
2.2: or a summoner who likes to use-sacrifice his summons for a super BUFF  and uses his OWN magic skills or play with ultimate summon+ his own magic skills at the same time!
3: (i know i already said this before  but is good to mention again) As advancement class we could go multiples paths where one focus on the base two summons (always maintaining two summons) and the other allows for a ultimate summon+magic skills from the caster path for players that want that type of "wizard + pet gameplay because sometimes you just want a summon but also to kickass yourself so a sacrificing type summoner x buff is a good option )
of course if the games have more than two advancement paths, we can always go for a complete ultimate summon type; a multiple summon path; full sacrifice summon for selfbuff and use his own skills path; and why not a fully healing type summons path as well, since only have cleric as healing is boring!.
each path have his own DIFFERENT GAMEPLAY STYLE but all of them in the SUMMONING LORE and would be a blast to play without doubt.

I like your idea, but don't you think consecutive summon will tilt off the class balance? I mean sure it's nice but you don't want the server just filled with one certain classes. besides, consecutive summon will burn your mana/MP quickly, and that will be bad for the long run. And instead of sacrifice summon, why dont we just make ultimate summon with items that you can buy in NPC? that way the money circulation(this is good for long run) will keep in the line and keep one class not to become super OP like one certain game that was managed by PLAY**** INTERACTIVE. But, I like most of your idea, especially the support type summon, it reminds me of Rising Force Online. 

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On 5/22/2019 at 11:34 PM, itskitto said:

It'll be interesting to see a couple different kinds of summoners, something that's more connected to nature like that of the Warden in ESO and then something that's more sinister like that of the Necromancer like in the GW series!

I second this sooooo very much. I think it would be really neat to implement maybe a choice, whether by choosing a particular class quest line or through a skill path, where we could have those connected to nature, elemental and those connected to the spirits/undead. I myself rarely play magic based characters in any game (more of a melee player), but Necromancers have always had a place in my heart (I promise I am not morbid, haha) since Diablo 2 first came out, so if given a chance, I choose Necromancer as a main magical class. The only downside of that is hardly any games since Diablo 2 (apart from Diablo 3) have given us a TRUE necro. I am not talking about warlocks or even Death Knights, but a true Necromancer. Skeletal warriors and magi minions, golems, blood magic, spirit and bone magic, etc. Minions that will reside by your side and not just stick around for a minute or two, at the very least a golem, ghoul, etc. that could be a permanent summon and have the skeletons and such be quick summons that are on a timer or skill duration.

So if at all possible, if this could be a part of the summoner class or even a class on it's own, I would be beyond happy, haha.

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In my opiniom a summoner do not realy fight, he has a pet, no, its more a friend who protects him, the summoner call the movements from the pet and his skills and a few own skills to support the pet in fight, as a summoner i hope you are more a puppet master but in friendship with your Companion.

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I think a type of micro-management summoner would be neat. One with full control over its summons.

I also would like the idea of an 'Abathur' summoner like in Heroes of the Storm. One that stays out of combat, but can attach itself to any character and support/deal damage.

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There are so many cool ways to do this! There’s the FF11 method or the pending mmo Peria Chronicles method. Both valid and engaging. What I really want to see though is an achievement based summoner system. I’d like a system that rewards hard work. Maybe a quest string that unlocks a summon? Or since this is a sandbox, maybe a discovery system to unlock summons? Maybe, go to the top of this mountain and ‘trap’ this guy to unlock him as a summon? Find a random world spawn?

I also think an existing summon should drain your mana/health/whatever. Maybe the stronger the summon , the greater the drain? 

Afterthought: maybe a pixie summon type system? Buffs/heals/debuffs? It really depends on if we went the summon to be the featured character or our own character to be what is featured. 

Edited by HaptikFeedback

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On 6/21/2019 at 10:14 PM, mkharto said:

I like your idea, but don't you think consecutive summon will tilt off the class balance? I mean sure it's nice but you don't want the server just filled with one certain classes. besides, consecutive summon will burn your mana/MP quickly, and that will be bad for the long run. And instead of sacrifice summon, why dont we just make ultimate summon with items that you can buy in NPC? that way the money circulation(this is good for long run) will keep in the line and keep one class not to become super OP like one certain game that was managed by PLAY**** INTERACTIVE. But, I like most of your idea, especially the support type summon, it reminds me of Rising Force Online. 

it's all in the balance not in numbers of pets following you,  for example you can have one super summon (one example of the build i stated for example) let's say that at end game he hit's 1k or multi summon with 3 pet's that hit 333 each or a fully fleshed necromancer summon as someone asked before with 10 skeletons  plus a golem doing 80 damage each  skeleton and 200 for the golem for example, in the end they would all be the same overall, so having multiples summons or one summon does not matter as long the balance is done with them  not the number of them!
this would also influence people and make everyone  not taking summoner since What is important in the end  is the illusion of freedom and the importance of the gameplay of what makes the player feels good, because this is what the player is in the end doing, playing(at least most of them). 
If we look at any mmo or mostly rpg  games today, ( i will focus only   on the dps pve aspect since is simpler to explain with it) we normally have only a illusion of freedom(at least in a good balanced game), if you take any dps class   as you role is mainly to dish out damage  the develop would create a content and calculate/estimate a  overall base damage/stats value for that specific  content of the game he created similar as  "do X amount  in y seconds " simple as that even if you are using a big ass axe, or a sword and shield, or magic or daggers or bows in the end that is what you are  needed to do  is dish out "x amount of damage in y seconds" and this is the first step of  overall balancing: the classes needs to "dish out x amount of damage in y seconds " to pass-advance in this specify content and it does not matter of how you do!. (of course i'm taking the standard scenery here, no one please come saying that you can "keep avoiding" the bosses atk and kills it in 10-20hours, because we know that is not like that, nor the content was  not made to be played like that!.) 
 the develops tries to match the classes to this value that is needed by giving us the illusion of freedom  and this illusion is given by drawing GOOD POINTS and BAD POINTS of each class and their respective skills!. 
 for example the main factors when considering dps  pve aspect!:
(again i'm only using dps pve to show a point.overall the number of "Layers" is more complex with as many steps as the develops want it to be )
 

  • if the skill damage is dealt by range, it should have a increase or decrease of that base value to reach the base estimate damage needed for the content . 
  • if the skill damage is magical, it should have a increase or decrease of that base value to reach the base estimate damage needed for the content .
  • if the skill damage have add on effect, it should increase or decrease the base value to reach the base estimate damage needed for the content .  
  • if the class is agility class, it could have less damage but higher frequency of attack to reach the base estimate damage needed for the content . 

Again i'm only using the dps pve aspect for this, there is  more steps and is overall more complex than i showed above  but i'm trying to simplify! for example: one of the "layers" i skipped is the "add on effect on skills  we have different types of CC like slow, stun and each one would give a up or down in the "overall base estimate damage" needed for the content in the end making it all too big to explain,
So why  i called "illusion of freedom"? since as i said in the same very example that those classes would have in the end good and bad points that would tilt the balance in favor or not in them doing more damage and the reason is because if the game is IF Balanced enough all those " end values of each class" in the end should be pretty similar to each other so a party of dps should be able to do their role even if you did not use a specific combination of classes, thus the illusion of freedom is formed it does not matter what dps you are picking since they should be able to do their role  of dps somehow  , of course this is talking about a balanced game something that is hard to come by, and thus creating the "famous METARACE", where one or more classes  dps (for this example) is so higher than the other in the base estimate damage for the content that it makes it be better overall than all other choices, something that should not exist!.
i'm sure that is even impossible to explain  to everyone each step and each "layer" of balancing   since the limit is only done by how far the develops wants to go with details in their balancing  since even needing to have a specific combination of classes to clear a content is one of the layer of balancing mmo as well(we see this a lot in trinity mmo), some people even call "optimal setup" to clear a content for example, it is also a  layer and could be  of course add in the mix of balancing but this involves supports and tankers in the mix so i'm gonna skip since i'm trying to keep it to dps only so overall in the end the DPS classes needs to reach a base line of value with all other dps classes with their own different abilities to have a game balanced and this is why "the balance of classes" most of the times never ends in the modern setting of mmo, it is too complex and have too many "LAYERS" but this is not a bad thing too. 

So going back to summoners, in reality  my previous msg seems far delirious in a sense if i could say because what i wrote was more or less  bringing all this aspect of "balancing" to the summons as well and not only to the summoner!, so how could they add multiples "Layers" and  the illusion of freedom in a summoner and thus making summoners builds balanced with each other?

Simple replace the layers i pointed out before for something as i stated in my previous post like : 

  • one bigger summon
  • multiple smalls summons
  • summon+summoner using skill
  • Summon fusing with summoner and only summoner using skills


in the end all those "DPS summoners" options would have their own downside and upside in the overall "layers" of damage just like differently classes would act with each other and of course all of them should also be in conformism with all others classes  and reach a "basic standard for the content not more not less than other classes " and of course you could add support summons, defensive summons, and everything else in the mix as long you have it "balanced" with each other following  the  same rules for balancing the summoners and his summons as when creating and balancing  those support and defensive classes classes for the content. 
(ps: again i'm only used the dps aspect in this, when you add support skills-defensive skills of course this would tilt the balance in the other way by making it hard for those classes to reach the "basic standard of damage to clear the content", even more in a trinity system game, and this is why people make parties for parties content, by taking a  number dps class that have a higher than the "basic standard of damage to clear the content " but "lower base survivability for the content" and mix with it defensive and support classes that have a lower ""basic standard of damage to clear the content" but "higher base survivability for the content"  you reach the balance wise situation  or in pure dps aspect games, where everyone still needs to have the basic standard dps to clear a content, there is still a lot of other layers to mix things up like mobility, defensive abilities,cc's and so on. ) 

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On 7/11/2019 at 6:09 AM, HaptikFeedback said:

I also think an existing summon should drain your mana/health/whatever. Maybe the stronger the summon , the greater the drain? 

I like that idea a lot, we don't really see that in games. Its a natural way to balance a summoner class, and opens the way for players to summon as many pets as they want. The main issue where having a summoner class balanced this way would be in PvP, though, as players would just focus the summoner instead of the pets (and kill them quite easily due to the pets' stat drain).

This is where the idea of micromanaging the summoner would be helpful, as the player could use CC or high damage abilities through their pets, forcing the other players to pay attention to them instead of the summoner. This means making the pets quite strong.. but that should be the point since its a summoner class, and will also be balanced with the stat drain on the summoner character.

Unfortunately, if micromanaging was the play-style, playing a laid-back summoner in PvP would be impossible. Perhaps give it a tankier low-damage skill track (as opposed to a glass cannon track which is what is being discussed above)?

The best route for this class is probably going to be giving them lots of different options. Tank, glass cannon, support etc. should all be possible builds.

Edited by EmeraldSlash

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