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Dagnome

Open world pvp, with a twist.

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After thinking long and hard about it i do support a open pvp game for oath but it has to have a caviot like red dead online where players can put on a passive mode which will remove them from being able to be targeted based on a threat level, ie If you killed a player recently you have x threat and your passive mode timer is on a cooldown based on your current threat level. You could even lock players with an active threat level out of certain areas to keep them engaged in pvp as a sort of penatly and to prevent them from hiding in a town or dungeon while their cooldown expires so it would have to be an active choice to engage in pvp or not. 

 

What are your thoughts about this?


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Interesting. Would that passive mode only apply to PvP then? In other words, could you still kill mobs and stuff?

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Correct, the passive mode would only effect player vs player combat. This would open the door as well to a bounty system where the higher your threat the more money you risk being "wanted" and if a player kills you they recieve your bounty out of your pocket adding another risk vs reward element to pvp.


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By passive mode, do you mean, if I have passive mode on, someone else can't just show up out of nowhere as I'm traveling and attack me?

If that is the case, I am all up for that idea, if not, could you explain a bit more what being on passive mode would be like.

Also, another idea to that, maybe the higher the threat level, there should be a way for people to know that the person has a high threat level. I'm not saying to show them on a mini map or make a beacon where everyone in the world can see them. More of like, if they are within your render distance, maybe they have this aura that's currently glowing red meaning they have been fighting or killing other players. That way if they show up in your render distance you can take a different route to where you are heading if you don't want to engage.

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Few questions:

>what would the rewards be?

>how to deal with hackers?

>how to deal with Teaming?

>is there a reward for those with high threat levels?

Neat idea, I think it would need some reworks for it to work in an MMO. One of the big problems I saw was that in red dead, youre limited by your ammo and battles are quick; but in an MMO youre limited by CD's, mana, etc... and multiple battles would be quite hard to win.

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Posted (edited)

This sounds like a really cool idea 😄. I really wanna see a response though to lyrexio's post he has some crucial questions that need to be answered.

Edited by Demiurge

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14 hours ago, Lyrexio said:

Few questions:

>what would the rewards be?

>how to deal with hackers?

>how to deal with Teaming?

>is there a reward for those with high threat levels?

Neat idea, I think it would need some reworks for it to work in an MMO. One of the big problems I saw was that in red dead, youre limited by your ammo and battles are quick; but in an MMO youre limited by CD's, mana, etc... and multiple battles would be quite hard to win.

> Well the rewards would be gold from their purse, maybe a title here and there.

> hackers is something the anti cheat and GM will have to deal with, they will always find a way into gaming these days unfourtunately but if we find a hacker they'll just get banned.

> teaming is an interesting concept, if you are not in this passive mode then you just simply accept the risk that there is a gang of gangkers rolling around out there. 

Remember the premise behind this is a simple one, allow open world pvp while not forcing anyone to engage in it. This was just a very brief initial idea on how to achieve these expanding the idea of zoned pvp into the open world. This way a player can simply not engage in pvp if they don't want to, it is basically a pvp toggle which was spoken about before but expanded a bit further. I have seen a lot of discussion on discord and did what i could to mesh most peoples wants into a concept that will work. If we can get enough community support behind this I am willing to bet the folks at ready up are flexible enough to consider this. 😉


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Sounds awful. Classic system of flagging with karma penalties is far better. Simple > complicated, AA and BDO's openworld successes were largely driven by this system.

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13 minutes ago, easy said:

Sounds awful. Classic system of flagging with karma penalties is far better. Simple > complicated, AA and BDO's openworld successes were largely driven by this system.

If you could elaborate more on what exactly a "karma" system is and what the benefits of it are that would drive the discussion foward.


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23 minutes ago, Dagnome said:

If you could elaborate more on what exactly a "karma" system is and what the benefits of it are that would drive the discussion foward.

Larger issues at hand if you don't know what a karma system is when speaking about MMOs lol


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Just now, easy said:

Larger issues at hand if you don't know what a karma system is when speaking about MMOs lol

It's more about when introducing a new element to a conversation, elaborating on it because we may have newer mmo players in the conversation. When you are suggesting alignment changes how would that apply to oath? What consequences do you see it having in this game?


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36 minutes ago, Dagnome said:

It's more about when introducing a new element to a conversation, elaborating on it because we may have newer mmo players in the conversation. When you are suggesting alignment changes how would that apply to oath? What consequences do you see it having in this game?

When a player intiates open-world PvP they lose an amount of karma, if the initiator then kills the other player they lose a larger amount of karma.

Once you are below a certain level of karma you are flagged (until you regain the karma) and lose certain privilages, e.g. loss of experience, can be pvped in safe-zones, ability to communicate with NPC's.


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9 hours ago, Dagnome said:

> Well the rewards would be gold from their purse, maybe a title here and there.

> hackers is something the anti cheat and GM will have to deal with, they will always find a way into gaming these days unfourtunately but if we find a hacker they'll just get banned.

> teaming is an interesting concept, if you are not in this passive mode then you just simply accept the risk that there is a gang of gangkers rolling around out there. 

Remember the premise behind this is a simple one, allow open world pvp while not forcing anyone to engage in it. This was just a very brief initial idea on how to achieve these expanding the idea of zoned pvp into the open world. This way a player can simply not engage in pvp if they don't want to, it is basically a pvp toggle which was spoken about before but expanded a bit further. I have seen a lot of discussion on discord and did what i could to mesh most peoples wants into a concept that will work. If we can get enough community support behind this I am willing to bet the folks at ready up are flexible enough to consider this. 😉

>I really like the idea of killing them for their cash- How would this work if I were to put all my money into my bank and then go out to farm other players for $$$?

>Fair point

>This is where im iffy about this...

Ex: High dps character teamed with 2 healers. The dps gets all of the kills and all of the threat, whereas the healers stay threat-less. So only the dps would be targetable by the threat level mechanic. The team then splits the gold afterwards.

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41 minutes ago, Lyrexio said:

>This is where im iffy about this... 

Ex: High dps character teamed with 2 healers. The dps gets all of the kills and all of the threat, whereas the healers stay threat-less. So only the dps would be targetable by the threat level mechanic. The team then splits the gold afterwards. 

You can't combat teaming in any good way other than making the rewards split equally/give reduced rewards, which most people wouldn't mind as they'd easily accept that for the added safety.

BUT, as the whole world wont be PvP I'd say its fair to say that when you go to the PvP-Zones its a risk that you've gotta accept, you either try solo it or get your own team, the game IS supposed to be community based after all.


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25 minutes ago, thomas said:

 

BUT, as the whole world wont be PvP I'd say its fair to say that when you go to the PvP-Zones its a risk that you've gotta accept, you either try solo it or get your own team, the game IS supposed to be community based after all.

im fine with that for pvp zones as its very clear what the purpose of them is. I'm more so referring to the open world pvp as i think Dag's idea could be easily exploited in an mmo making it a feature people would just not use.

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Many games have open world PvP based on factions, race, etc and are successful and fun, so it's not necessarily a bad thing or a problem. With that said, I really like the PvP system (the twist you mentioned in the title) from a game that's not even released yet, but in theory works really well. However, if dying in PvP is meaningless (you don't lose anything, no risk), then open world PvP is whatever: who cares if I die? Just go back and only waste some time.

My biggest issue with PvP in MMOs, be it 100% open world without safe zones (WoW, for instance) or only enabled in specific areas of the map (OSRS, for instance), is that zerging, griefing, camping TPs might harm the game quite a lot. Also, being able to toggle yourself out of PvP is a lazy way to make the game enjoyable to people who don't like PvP. I understand that making a game only a specific audience will enjoy can be a shot in the foot, as you want as many people as possible playing it. However, making bad decisions in order to fit all of these audiences together can also be harmful to the game.

I don't have a solution for this issue, I don't think one solution fits all games, it's something that will depend on each game, their focus, their target audience, core features, etc. But, if it were up to me, I'd go with 100% open world PvP with karma/threat/flag mixed with risk vs. reward zones, meaning:

  • you can be attacked anywhere;
  • engaging in PvP will have consequences, maybe similar to the PvP system I linked above;
  • consequences for dying and/or killing will vary depending on where you are:
    • Low risk and rewards: starter areas, no rare materials are found here, etc. Killing people won't give you anything;
    • Medium risk and rewards: areas with some elite mobs, rare materials have a low chance of being found, etc. Killing people will give only a bit of their loot;
    • High risk and rewards: the best places to farm mobs, rare materials, etc. Killing people will give you most of their loot. 

I enjoy meaningless PvP as much as meaningful PvP. I like the PvP in WoW and other games which you don't get loot, only some sort of honor and no flagging. I can also enjoy games where engaging in PvP is a high risk but high reward situation, DMM from OSRS for example. If Oath is able to balance this out and cater to all audiences, then great, but careful not to break it (like a PvP toggle, for instance).

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6 minutes ago, Lyrexio said:

im fine with that for pvp zones as its very clear what the purpose of them is. I'm more so referring to the open world pvp as i think Dag's idea could be easily exploited in an mmo making it a feature people would just not use.

Dag's idea seems to be an overcomplicated karma system with some GTA5 type passive mode, a simpler karma system with drawbacks for players that lose too much karma would be more likely to prevent most ganking, from what I've seen in MMO's such as BDO for example.

Overcomplicating a system meant to cause detrimental effects to players just makes it easier to abuse and exploit.

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On 7/3/2019 at 5:54 PM, BaSkA said:

Many games have open world PvP based on factions, race, etc and are successful and fun, so it's not necessarily a bad thing or a problem. With that said, I really like the PvP system (the twist you mentioned in the title) from a game that's not even released yet, but in theory works really well. However, if dying in PvP is meaningless (you don't lose anything, no risk), then open world PvP is whatever: who cares if I die? Just go back and only waste some time.

My biggest issue with PvP in MMOs, be it 100% open world without safe zones (WoW, for instance) or only enabled in specific areas of the map (OSRS, for instance), is that zerging, griefing, camping TPs might harm the game quite a lot. Also, being able to toggle yourself out of PvP is a lazy way to make the game enjoyable to people who don't like PvP. I understand that making a game only a specific audience will enjoy can be a shot in the foot, as you want as many people as possible playing it. However, making bad decisions in order to fit all of these audiences together can also be harmful to the game.

I don't have a solution for this issue, I don't think one solution fits all games, it's something that will depend on each game, their focus, their target audience, core features, etc. But, if it were up to me, I'd go with 100% open world PvP with karma/threat/flag mixed with risk vs. reward zones, meaning:

  • you can be attacked anywhere;
  • engaging in PvP will have consequences, maybe similar to the PvP system I linked above;
  • consequences for dying and/or killing will vary depending on where you are:
    • Low risk and rewards: starter areas, no rare materials are found here, etc. Killing people won't give you anything;
    • Medium risk and rewards: areas with some elite mobs, rare materials have a low chance of being found, etc. Killing people will give only a bit of their loot;
    • High risk and rewards: the best places to farm mobs, rare materials, etc. Killing people will give you most of their loot. 

I enjoy meaningless PvP as much as meaningful PvP. I like the PvP in WoW and other games which you don't get loot, only some sort of honor and no flagging. I can also enjoy games where engaging in PvP is a high risk but high reward situation, DMM from OSRS for example. If Oath is able to balance this out and cater to all audiences, then great, but careful not to break it (like a PvP toggle, for instance).

I like all of this. I really hope though that this game doesn't try to use some system similar to Albion Online where zones are predispositioned and it's not very fun. I do like how OSRS handled stuff along with WOW. Also not a fan of passive mode, maybe you can enable passive mode and you can still be attacked but you have to be at "War" with that faction or w.e to attack them freely and if you're not, then attacking the "passive" player will harm you in some way.

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On 7/3/2019 at 6:49 AM, Dagnome said:

If you could elaborate more on what exactly a "karma" system is and what the benefits of it are that would drive the discussion foward.

I'm unfamiliar with the BDO concept he's referring to but I come from a large background playing ArcheAge (I assume that's what OP meant by AA). Essentially their 'karma' system granted the player crime points if a player engaged in unlawful acts. You begin with 0 on your character and actions such as robbing a player's publicly planted goods left evidence that other players could then report. Once reported, the culprit would receive a certain number of crime points per instance this crime was committed. There are other means of earning crime points as well but, for the sake of simplicity, I'll spare you the details. Once a player received enough crime points they became marked as "Wanted". This status meant that once the player died, they respawned in a courthouse, and judged by a jury of 5 randomly selected players (what was nice about this was the player wasn't barred from any content, but risked putting their party or raid at a disadvantage if they died and were sent away. It added an extra layer of risk). These players are given a log of all unlawful acts that the culprit has committed and then determines if they're guilty or innocent. If guilty, the player is sent to their faction's prison for X amount of time or if they've received enough crime points (I believe it's 3000 or more? I was always a good boy so I never got there) they become exiled from their faction and all faction guards and NPCs turn hostile to them. The player is able to reduce their total crime points through a variety of means as well, but the most common was consuming an item called the draught of forgiveness. 


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