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Penalty for losing in PvP

Penalty for losing in PvP ?  

46 members have voted

  1. 1. What should the Penalty be for losing to another player in Open world PvP / GvG / Continent Wars / Monarchy Wars ?

    • No dropped or broken items. Just a respawn time giving enemy players the time to achieve their objective ? (Making revive a big role in pvp)
    • Drops gear / items from your inventory at random and player is allowed to loot the items you drop ? After which you teleport back to your guild hall or the nearest Town ? (Making ganking a big role)
    • Gear breaks at random and player cannot loot your gear ? (causing a constant need for Gatheres and Crafters in the game ?)
    • Lose Hierarchy points toward the Monarchy system and ranked position in the game. (Making PvP a big part of the Monarchy race to be king / queen / prince/ duke / etc)


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2 minutes ago, Linger said:

1) I think there is no reason for PvP vendor to exist in full loot environment, as you said maybe for some unique skins or cosmetics but that's about it. The loot you would get from players should be enough.

2) in a non-full loot environment i agree with you.

And i also agree that there should be some penalty for dying. Never heard about Project Ascension though and got no idea how their death system works for PvP.

Yeah in a pure full-loot, then a vendor just to show off about how much players you've killed with a fancy hat is more than enough, only cosmetics & stuff like that to showboat

 In Project Ascension their pvp death system in High Risk is done very well, you just lose some of the items in your inventory and a chance to lose some of your equipment, you can insure your equipment so if that particular item was going to drop, you lose it's worth in gold instead 


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1 minute ago, Jessica said:

Yeah in a pure full-loot, then a vendor just to show off about how much players you've killed with a fancy hat is more than enough, only cosmetics & stuff like that to showboat

 In Project Ascension their pvp death system in High Risk is done very well, you just lose some of the items in your inventory and a chance to lose some of your equipment, you can insure your equipment so if that particular item was going to drop, you lose it's worth in gold instead 

I think that it really depends on how the whole progression system is designed in Oath and how valuable each piece of gear is. So losing a piece of gear upon death could either be insanely big penalty (mentioning BDO again) or fairly bearable penalty. 

The project ascension pvp death system sounds fairly well designed, but as i said before i really don't agree with "gear dropping upon death" if 1 piece can take 500h of grind, no idea how the progression is in Project Ascension.

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Just now, Linger said:

I think that it really depends on how the whole progression system is designed in Oath and how valuable each piece of gear is. So losing a piece of gear upon death could either be insanely big penalty (mentioning BDO again) or fairly bearable penalty. 

The project ascension pvp death system sounds fairly well designed, but as i said before i really don't agree with "gear dropping upon death" if 1 piece can take 500h of grind, no idea how the progression is in Project Ascension.

Progression is pretty linear

Start with random quest gear -> dungeon -> dungeon -> raid -> better raid -> raids -> new quest gear that comes out -> dungeon -> and so forth

So if I lose a staff from Dungeon #4, I can just get gear from Dungeon #3 or Craft it and re-farm Dungeon #4 etc.

 

Yeah it's purely based on how they do progression and such, I'm excited to see how they handle both that and PVP


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1 minute ago, Jessica said:

Progression is pretty linear

Start with random quest gear -> dungeon -> dungeon -> raid -> better raid -> raids -> new quest gear that comes out -> dungeon -> and so forth

So if I lose a staff from Dungeon #4, I can just get gear from Dungeon #3 or Craft it and re-farm Dungeon #4 etc.

 

Yeah it's purely based on how they do progression and such, I'm excited to see how they handle both that and PVP

Yea, the penalties for dying should be well balanced with how hard it's to progress in the game. It shouldn't be too punishing or the rewards for killing others too small otherwise it would kill the pvp scene quite fast.

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Just now, Linger said:

Yea, the penalties for dying should be well balanced with how hard it's to progress in the game. It shouldn't be too punishing or the rewards for killing others too small otherwise it would kill the pvp scene quite fast.

Yeah like in Albion, to make the best gear you only need to gather the materials & make it, there's no real "grind" to it aside from the grind of getting your gathering up.

But if it's full loot and I lost a staff that took me 106 raid tries to get, then wtf


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1 minute ago, Jessica said:

Yeah like in Albion, to make the best gear you only need to gather the materials & make it, there's no real "grind" to it aside from the grind of getting your gathering up.

But if it's full loot and I lost a staff that took me 106 raid tries to get, then wtf

Yea, i pretty much agree with you. In Albion the open world full loot pvp has place and it's not bad since it's not so hard to get the gear back as far as i know. But if full loot would be in BDO i think that the game would die extremely fast just cuz of that.

tldr; it needs to be well balanced xD

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1 minute ago, Linger said:

Yea, i pretty much agree with you. In Albion the open world full loot pvp has place and it's not bad since it's not so hard to get the gear back as far as i know. But if full loot would be in BDO i think that the game would die extremely fast just cuz of that.

tldr; it needs to be well balanced xD

TLDR is for nerds

remove at once >:c


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Sounds like the topic should have been rewritten as "what should the benefit of ganking be".  

 

It's been stated several times, this is a PVE mmorpg, with PvP elements. 

 

I highly doubt there.will be full loot, that.progression will be negated with crafting, etc. There are plenty of PvP MMOs out there.with these systems, stop trying to turn this game into one of those.

Edited by Yaz87
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5 hours ago, Hersik said:

Maybe if drops would be more realistic it would be worth to implement that in 3D mmorpg big worlds (not like albion type of game..) What i mean by that ?

When you die, in battle you damage armor, breaks some parts so if you would wanna loot from some character his inventory after game you should have the penalties with it + when you remove his loot you do more damage to it.. so you had to repair that or if you couldn't you had to just dismiss to get a small % of materials which you need for creating for have it from something it.. Ofc repairs part would have same conditions like farm materials for fix and make it to original value as soon on so you couldn't just pick up and fight it with without consequences

I agree... i think it'll be quite stupid to have zero penalty for dying... Especially in a GvG..

I also think full loot is way to high of a penalty for GvG..

Scenario 1: Someone wages war against your guild, they come to you with 10 guys.. you manage to beat the 10 guys.... But there's no penalty so those 10 guys are simply going to get back up or respawn n come right back till you have to go to sleep and eventually they rob your entire guild hall.

Scenario 2: Someone wages war against your guild and come with the same 10 guys.. You manage to beat the 10 guys with your guild and their armor is broken and must be repaired back at their guild hall or the nearest town. That gives you the sense of victory as they have no choice but to retreat as they can't fight with a broken sword. That way if they choose to keep coming back, it will cost them fortunes in repair bills if they keep losing and will force them to play tactical n think n come up with a plan of attack.

Scenario 3: Someone wages war against your guild in a full loot system with 10 guys and you manage to beat the 10 guys.. They have to now start from scratch and recreate every piece of gear they had on.. Not only that but some of their gear pieces may have been dropped by bosses after hours of raiding and crafted with the highest, rarest materials that tooks hours to find.... Personally if i drop my Boss weapon that i spent hours to grind for just because i died in PvP... I'd quit... Because whats the point of my awesome boss weapon if i can't use it without fear or dying n dropping it after fight #1

Personally i think that every guild hall should have guards and a Master Guardsman(Like a mini boss) that are challenging but not impossible to kill so 1 guy can't wage war against a rich 20 man guild when they're offline and just auto attack the walls n walk inside n auto attack the Guild Vault n take all the loot...

Automatic Archer Towers / Defensive builds could work...... But then all you have to do is run in.. attack it.. run out heal.. Run in attack it.. run out heal.. Until its broken and needs to be rebuilt / repaired.

I believe automatically re spawning guilds would be the best route

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58 minutes ago, Yaz87 said:

Sounds like the topic should have been rewritten as "what should the benefit of ganking be".  

 

It's been stated several times, this is a PVE mmorpg, with PvP elements. 

 

I highly doubt there.will be full loot, that.progression will be negated with crafting, etc. There are plenty of PvP MMOs out there.with these systems, stop trying to turn this game into one of those.

Couldn't agree more sir.

Leave full loot to albion online.

This doesn't need to be albion 2.0

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On 5/28/2019 at 3:27 PM, Nachtdrache said:

You should have given an option for "Other"

Since I really don't know how looting/gearing is going to work in the game right now I can't vote for having a full loot or loot destruction system

 

Pretty much this, although I'm a bit late to the conversation. With so many uncertainties, it's hard to decide what's best for Oath's PvP aspects.

 

On 5/29/2019 at 1:52 PM, Yaz87 said:

It's been stated several times, this is a PVE mmorpg, with PvP elements. 

I highly doubt there will be full loot, that progression will be negated with crafting, etc. There are plenty of PvP MMOs out there.with these systems, stop trying to turn this game into one of those.

 

Again, this. No need to copy another game in order for Oath to work, although it's hard to come up with something that has never been done before. I hope the "PVE mmorpg, with PvP elements" statement can be changed to suit for both styles of players, however.

 

With that said, in general, I think the Oath team has a cool challenge ahead of them: how to make a game that caters for both PvE and PvP players in a non mutually exclusive way. If I were to decide things, based on my own experience playing and also theorycrafting in different forums, I'd make sure the game has distinct PvP, PvE and PvPvE content as follows:

  • PvE (safe zones with no PvP at all, except for dueling maybe): plenty of room for innovation, but should at least consist of:
    • Open world monsters and bosses;
    • Good quests (osrs quests come to mind);
    • Instanced dungeons with different difficulties; and
    • Events.
  • PvP (also a safe zone, i.e. no penalties for dying, because the main reason to participate in this content is to kill and be killed): also plenty of room for innovation, or at least copying good aspects from a plethora of other games, but at least consist of:
    • Ranked Arena: fun if you like min-maxing, competitive content for different ladders 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, etc;
    • Battlegrounds: basically massive instanced PvP content (40+ people) with different goals: capture the flag, last man standing/battle royale, again, lots of room for innovation;
    • GvG: just like arenas are competitive for small groups and battlegrounds are PvP content for big groups, I believe guilds should have competitive content as well, weekly/monthly, capture/defend your castle (Silkroad's Fortress War comes to mind), big all out fights, so many ideas come to mind that I'll just stop here.
  • PvPvE (Open world PvP): now this is where things get ugly and complex, because too many aspects (should) matter. I'll try to answer OP's question "Penalty for losing in PvP?", even though I don't think there's a formula that fits everything. First of all, why is there conflict in these areas? There needs to be reason for people to go to these places, apart from PvPing. Be that rare materials, rewarding/hard/hidden quests, wandering bosses, caravans/trades that need to go through this area, roaming NPC vendors, territory fights, etc. Both Outlands from WoW and the Wilderness from OSRS come to mind. However, the penalty for dying here should depend on your PvP status: were you the attacker, defender or did you not even fight back? Balance here is key, but in general, although I'm not going to talk about quantities, I hope for the following:
    • No RNG regarding what you're gonna lose if you die. A player must be able to tell what items he/she is going to lose and keep in case they die in their current PvP status. I personally dislike RNG and wish it wasn't so present in so many aspects of most MMORPGs.
    • I personally don't like armor degradation, even though it can be good gold sink, but it's another option for a penalty when people die.
    • A good looting system. I enjoy OSRS's loot system and even though it has some issues, it's better than average. In essence, it has to be thought through and not some half-assed system with RNG or luck involved.

 

I'm sure I didn't even touch half of what needs to be discussed regarding safe and unsafe PvP, it's penalties, alternative content, etc, but I hope I was able to convey my thoughts, although there's still one big problem: money. In order for a game to have lots of great content which cater to both style of players (PvE and PvP), it needs to have so many people creating content, so much work and so much integration between all kinds of systems it's no surprise to me that only a handful of MMORPGs have done it right. I hope Oath is able to create enough content to please different styles of players with the money they've got now and keep going in the right direction after a hopefully successful launch, which's also something hard to do.

 

tl;dr: I don't have a life.

Edited by BaSkA
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On 5/29/2019 at 11:52 AM, Yaz87 said:

Sounds like the topic should have been rewritten as "what should the benefit of ganking be".  

 

It's been stated several times, this is a PVE mmorpg, with PvP elements. 

 

I highly doubt there.will be full loot, that.progression will be negated with crafting, etc. There are plenty of PvP MMOs out there.with these systems, stop trying to turn this game into one of those.

I know its already confirmed there will be no full loot pvp but these comments are the same tired ones you see across every new game that comes out.

Just because you don't like pvp as content does not mean other people don't enjoy it. You can call it ganking if you want to make it sound like someone is being victimized, but its no worse than dying to a lame PvE mechanic imo. It also does not mean we should not discuss pvp as both content and having the ability to have some sort of progression tied to it.

Saying a game is a PvE game with PvP elements is a cop out to wanting pvp removed. If they've created a guild war system, world pvp, battlegrounds, and so on I find it hard to say it has elements of pvp. Its an MMO that has both PvE and PvP content and folks need to stop trying to have one side or the other removed from games that are clearly trying to support both.

Saying "there are plenty of XXXX games out there don't try to turn thisgame  into that," is a lazy argument we need to retire it does not add anything to the discussion by saying it. People wanting systems they enjoyed from other games added to a new game they're interested in is not a bad thing. We should discuss why it does or does not have a place in the game instead of just saying its been done somewhere else it doesn't need to be done here.

Without knowing how gearing will be handled, I'd like to see a pvp flag on/off feature that allows for open world pvp. I'd like to see some kind of pvp currency coming from open world pvp. This allows open world pvp to happen for willing participants. I don't care for full loot systems and its not because I dislike losing my gear, it has more to do with gear not feeling valuable as its so disposable.

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24 minutes ago, Nachtdrache said:

I know its already confirmed there will be no full loot pvp but these comments are the same tired ones you see across every new game that comes out.

Just because you don't like pvp as content does not mean other people don't enjoy it. You can call it ganking if you want to make it sound like someone is being victimized, but its no worse than dying to a lame PvE mechanic imo. It also does not mean we should not discuss pvp as both content and having the ability to have some sort of progression tied to it.

Saying a game is a PvE game with PvP elements is a cop out to wanting pvp removed. If they've created a guild war system, world pvp, battlegrounds, and so on I find it hard to say it has elements of pvp. Its an MMO that has both PvE and PvP content and folks need to stop trying to have one side or the other removed from games that are clearly trying to support both.

Saying "there are plenty of XXXX games out there don't try to turn thisgame  into that," is a lazy argument we need to retire it does not add anything to the discussion by saying it. People wanting systems they enjoyed from other games added to a new game they're interested in is not a bad thing. We should discuss why it does or does not have a place in the game instead of just saying its been done somewhere else it doesn't need to be done here.

Without knowing how gearing will be handled, I'd like to see a pvp flag on/off feature that allows for open world pvp. I'd like to see some kind of pvp currency coming from open world pvp. This allows open world pvp to happen for willing participants. I don't care for full loot systems and its not because I dislike losing my gear, it has more to do with gear not feeling valuable as its so disposable.

There's a big difference. That computer generated encounter doesn't kill you with for the fun of it. It doesn't take your resources, it doesn't camp you, and you can walk away from it.

In a raid scinario engagement doesn't happen until you initiate it. The argument most people.make against PvP is not that we.dont want PvP in the game but that we as players with different ways of enjoying content do not feel it is right or necessary to be forced into non-consentual pvp.

PvP is fine, I enjoy PvP. I don't enjoy being forced to PvP to advance in pve and I know many people who are on the same page for PvP. No one should have to participate in PvP to be competitive in pve and vise versa.

Not once did anyone say the game shouldn't have PvP so stop trying to twist this. I'm telling people to stop pretending the focus is equally on PvP because unless their wordings wrong, it's not and this will mislead people. 

 

PvP players are not generally forced to engage in end game pve to get better PvP gear or resources. If you want the best pve resources with the current model you are heavily pressured.to engage in PvP that can and will result in loss of resources. The game at a glance disproprtionatly punishes pve players by forcing them into PvP conflict to accomplish a non PvP goal.

 

A comparable argument would be that resources to create PvP specific consumables can be found in the world, however there is a substantially higher abundence of them found inside dungeon and raid instances and if you die you lose them. That would never end up in the game due to the childish rage it would enduce, but everyone feels it's fine to do that to pve players forcing them into contested PvP areas to have their resources stolen

Edited by Yaz87
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4 minutes ago, Yaz87 said:

In a raid scinario engagement doesn't happen until you initiate it. The argument most people.make against PvP is not that we.dont want PvP in the game but that we as players with different ways of enjoying content do not feel it is right or necessary to be forced into non-consentual pvp.

PvP is fine, I enjoy PvP. I don't enjoy being forced to PvP to advance in pve and I know many people who are on the same page for PvP. No one should have to participate in PvP to be competitive in pve and vise versa.

Im mostly into pvp and I don't disagree. Thats why I mentioned the flagging system.

 

5 minutes ago, Yaz87 said:

Not once did anyone say the game shouldn't have PvP so stop trying to twist this. I'm telling people to stop pretending the focus is equally on PvP because unless their wordings wrong, it's not and this will mislead people. 

It may not be 50/50 on focus of the developers but folks who do prioritize pvp content as their main form of MMO content should not stop trying to grow and push for more of the content they enjoy even if others don't enjoy it especially at this stage in development. This is what is being done when you call something a PvE game and try to downplay and role that pvp could have in this game. This game is still very much a clean slate and could develop into many things.

 

10 minutes ago, Yaz87 said:

PvP players are not generally forced to engage in end game pve to get better PvP gear or resources. If you want the best pve resources with the current model you are heavily pressured.to engage in PvP that can and will result in loss of resources. The game at a glance disproprtionatly punishes pve players by forcing them into PvP conflict to accomplish a non PvP goal.

I'm not sure what game you're playing but I see that most MMOs have players doing PvE content even if they want pvp to be their focus, or PvE content is exponentially faster at gearing than the pvp content, so I'm curious which games you're using as a reference for this statement. I'm not sure what systems you're talking about that are currently in place that are forcing players to PvP for PvE resources ( I legit don't know link please I'm curious). That being said if obtaining some of the best resources are obtained by pvp control, it hardly sounds like a PvE game with pvp elements, sounds like quite the opposite to me.

 

That being said I don't want people to be forced into pvp anymore than I want to be forced into pve more than I have to, they should be paths you choose to go down, not ones you're forced down. In the end we should always be fighting to make this game the most fun we can for ourselves. If its not fun whats the point. 

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1 hour ago, Yaz87 said:

PvP players are not generally forced to engage in end game pve to get better PvP gear or resources. If you want the best pve resources with the current model you are heavily pressured.to engage in PvP that can and will result in loss of resources. The game at a glance disproprtionatly punishes pve players by forcing them into PvP conflict to accomplish a non PvP goal.

What you are saying about PvP players generally not being forced to do end game pve in order to get better PvP gear or resources is literally false. Or at least from the top of my head i can't remember a single mmorpg that does it. In both BDO and WoW you are pretty much forced to do PvE if you want better PvP gear, just an example.

Also from what Stephen said, players won't be dropping anything from their inventory or gear, so that already confirms there won't be full loot pvp or any other harsh penalties for dying in PvP.

And i don't know from where you can tell "at a glance" that the game punishes PvE players and forces them into PvP conflicts. It was several times said that the open world pvp areas will have something like better drop rates, but it was made quite clear that you will not be forced to do that content if you aren't fond of it and can progress without ever touching PvP. Of course who knows how they will balance it but i'm very sure you won't be forced to go into open world pvp zones to progress through the game unless they make the zones way too good to pass on, but i doubt they would mess up the balancing like that.

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Personally i think PvP should be restricted to Arenas, Duels, some open world areas and Guild vs Guild but i do agree that full loot is way over the top.

GG Stephan <3
 

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I personally liked good ol’ runescapes way of handling it:

The majority of the world was safe in PvE.

There was a “wilderness” zone that had worthwhile resource nodes for those who wished to venture out.  These resource nodes were found throughout the normal world as well.  There were also npc mobs with some nice drops.

In the wilderness every person automatically protected the 3 most valuable items on their person.

If you attacked someone in this zone (unprovoked, they didn’t attack you), you would become flagged for x time.  Each time you attack a person, the flag timer resets.

When flagged, you lose ALL items.  

There was a combat skill called prayer, that had various bonuses... but one of them was to allow for the protection of an additional item.

You could only attack or be attacked by someone within a certain range of your level.  So no level 100s ganking 20s

 

What did this mean for the system?  Often you would find pvpers would hunt down pkers, since they would be the most lucrative.  Why kill someone for some cowhides, when there’s shiny combat loot up for grabs?

It was a really fun and balanced system, most definitely not intrusive to PvErs, they never had to set foot in there to begin with.

Edited by Pluto

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