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FeveredDreamer

Stealth?

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Whether or not stealth/invisibility exists for rogue archetypes seems to be one of those big dividing factors in games. DPS classes already seem to be a pain to figure out balance-wise, but stealth and crowd control tend to make that way worse. It'd be cool to see some of the dev teams thoughts early on to get a vision for what this class is meant to be so that the archetype doesn't fall into the usual circle of never-ending buffs and nerfs.

Any ideas?

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I've always been a fan of stealth on rogues. It's one of those skills that actually pushes people to want to play that class. Tackling the issue of balancing it though, not a clue! So many MMOs have tried but nobody can seem to get it right lol.

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You would have to make the rogue squishy or better yet, the stealth is fine its usually the CC lockdown thing that usually gets you. Because you wander around minding your own bizz and then suddenly your a locked in cc for 5 seconds and ur hp goes from 100% to 0 in those 5 seconds.

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There is always ways to limit stealth, like League of Legends does (even if it is a MOBA).

Full invisibility either has a limited time or is limited to an area (Shaco has a max 4.5 secs invisibilty, kha'zix has lower time but multiple consecutive activations, Akali is only invisible within her shroud)

And if you make a type of invisibility that lasts more time, you can limit the distance at which you can be invisible, so if you are at 5 meters of a player you will see him(like Evelynn or Twitch), but at more than that distance you cannot see the player, or you can indicate the player that an invisible enemy is close with a visual indicator to the player, you do not show where the invisible player is but rather that there is an invisible player close (like with Rengar).

There should always be limitations with invisibility, also by having different limitations you can develop different classes that work and feel different even if they all use some type of stealth mechanic.

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Gw2 invisibility is also not a problem. You can include mechanics like reveal. Of course you have to make sure that one shots from perma stealth arent possible.

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I think that the rogue should be a someone who should deal damage if you back-stab them, what I mean by this is that if the rogue hits a person form behind he/she will deal more damage than a regular auto-attack

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Stealth level pitted against perception level. With different classes having different base perception bonuses (rangers have high perception, warriors are low perception, etc.) And of course higher levels have higher perception and higher stealth so that a level 1 rogue can't escape detection from a level 50 whatever. And visa-versa a level 50 rogue can't be discovered by a level 1 whatever.

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Im a big fan of stealth. It opens the door to a lot of exciting game play and mechanics like intel gathering for the sieges that are being teased. Being afraid of the buff nerf cycle seems silly. Thats part of any game and its nearly impossible for devs to know every way that players will use, abuse and combine abilities or mechanics. Its up to us as players and community to explore that and give good feedback. Thats what alphas and betas are for, and even with that as the game progresses there will always been the need for re balancing. I look forward to it and I hope the rogue class has stealth!

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The biggest thing I've seen from this forum on stealth is people being so stuck on a singular games mechanic of stealth. Like someone who played BDO and instantly hates stealth because of some encounter they had in the past making them largely biased. Don't be against the idea or concept of something purely because of your bias to another game that you disliked, provide a way to make it balanced and yet competitive and still have a skill ceiling for use. 
 

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17 hours ago, Kaiser said:

Stealth level pitted against perception level. With different classes having different base perception bonuses (rangers have high perception, warriors are low perception, etc.) And of course higher levels have higher perception and higher stealth so that a level 1 rogue can't escape detection from a level 50 whatever. And visa-versa a level 50 rogue can't be discovered by a level 1 whatever.

I dig it. Reminds me of Dungeons & Dragons! If something like this were to exist in an MMO setting, I would be interested in seeing how they flesh out similar skills (What else would perception allow for classes to do, etc).

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My solution would be two types of stealth, passive and combat stealth. I think having a proximity stealth (a toggled stealth rogues can use to stay invis indefinitely but at a range where they cant attack) would be a perfect form of utility stealth. So for me, the question of combat stealth is what makes it so problematic? The largest issue combat stealth provides is the that the non-rogue players don't know when they'll be attacked and one shot because of the rogue's high damage output (in most cases). I believe the solution is large animation stealth. For example a cloud the rogue can toss down to allow him to move up to his enemies while remaining invis. However, if you want to prevent the nimbus cloud created by an army of rogues than a smaller animation where the rogue tosses smoke to the ground reminiscent of a ninja then gaining true stealth for a show period is also a viable option. Both types of stealth should create a visible effect that non-rogue players can use as an indicator that they have just entered the fray with a rogue. In this scenario, the non-rogue player now knows the rogue is within their proximity meaning they can be prepared to use any anti-rogue measures they might have and there should be some anti-rogue measure that applies to other classes (anti CC buff for short period). This system gives non-rogues time to answer the invis threat. If it isn't obvious by now I want the rogue to have stealth and I like this system because it gives rogues their stealth and gives opponents a way to answer it. There's more than one way to stealth a rogue, this one is just my first shot at it. I hope this helps you guys.  

Edited by Zosink

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On 5/24/2019 at 11:55 PM, YourClosetLlama said:

I dig it. Reminds me of Dungeons & Dragons! If something like this were to exist in an MMO setting, I would be interested in seeing how they flesh out similar skills (What else would perception allow for classes to do, etc).

Perception could:

  • Allow characters to notice traps
  • Allow resource nodes to be added to the mini-map from further away

And plenty of other stuff, still I think even talking about perception assumes some things about what the game's skill system will be like 🙂 we've got no idea atm!

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The point about that type of caractere is that it needs a lot of practice, i'm sorry but a bad rogue in any game can't kill somebody in 3 sec if he is unskilled and doesn't know mechanics. And that's why i personnaly love playing these classes , because they are hard to master and you have to be fast. It's not given to everybody. People talk about these classes as if it was easy to play it. But once you get focused in war or anything it's really complicated, and that's part of the game. 

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Split stealth into two types imo.

Permanent stealth or long duration stealth would only work from a distance. They should be able to see the rogue before they get within attack range of the rogue. You could also make it so mobs don't see them at all for this in PvE.

Short term stealth/invisibility that is more of an incombat only type mechanic or effect from their skills used more for confusion or escaping compared to giving assassins the opener every single time. Similar to how warhammer or blade and soul handled stealth.

Edited by Nachtdrache

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I always loved how Dark Age of Camelot handled stealth. The assassin-types hit very hard from stealth, but are also pretty squishy. 

 

The stealth was essentially pure invisibility with regard to non-stealth characters, but other stealthers are able to see each other for decent counter-play. If they're melee glass cannons, then it's not so bad. They are good at what they do, taking out other squishy people. It's a rock, paper, scissors style.

stealthers>casters>tanks>stealthers

 

But others have hit the key point of frustration which is CC-locking. Though that is a different issue, though they're typically coupled together.

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I don't believe stealth in and of itself is overpowered.  It is seen that way imo because often the ability is most often paired with op abilities that take out half or more health (backstab) and stun lock your opponent.  Make it a choice backstab or stun lock but either choice means you will need to be ready to be hit.  So having said that I'm not a fan of mage like squishyness for rogues nor am I a fan of tank like health.

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I think it should 100% have stealth, and I think it should be done similar to how old WoW did it. You have a decently high detection of a stealthed rogue when they're just about to get into melee with you. This caused a sort of dance in pvp, where you are constantly trying to catch a glimpse of the rogue to pop them, while they have to keep moving around you trying to find an opening. It was incredibly fun in pvp and made both playing a rogue and fighting against them quite fun.

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Its easy make 2 types of stealth, passive that can be on scouts ( rangers, assassins, maybe mage if they are going ice idk) that where ppl can see u if they are to close to you, or make a short cld spell for tanks and healers and mages that can reveal them, and make a combat stealth that last for like min or smth, where u can go and take intel on enemy guild or positions or just kill for fun... but make a spell with long cld like 1 min or 2 that can reveal combat stealth units and for like 10 sec in 30m around you and give it 2 tanks, healers and scouts so they can use it 2 keep them safe...

Edited by Aska

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Stealth in my opinion should be similar to what it is in GW2 or WoW, I think both types work well because stealth in itself is not overpowered, it's what usually comes after stealth. Maybe there is another type of stealth that is fun I don't know about but those two examples are fun to play as and fair.

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I think Starcraft 2 has a great stealth mechanic. The way it was first implemented into Heroes of the Storm was great too.

How it worked is that you were completely invisible, but there was a way to be able to know where they are.

When moving around, the part of the ground that they walked  over would 'warp' in a way--somewhat like poorly reflected light.

The part I liked about this was that if you werent paying attention, you wouldnt see them, but if you did watch out for them, it became much easier.

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On 6/23/2019 at 5:19 PM, Lyrexio said:

I think Starcraft 2 has a great stealth mechanic. The way it was first implemented into Heroes of the Storm was great too.

How it worked is that you were completely invisible, but there was a way to be able to know where they are.

When moving around, the part of the ground that they walked  over would 'warp' in a way--somewhat like poorly reflected light.

The part I liked about this was that if you werent paying attention, you wouldnt see them, but if you did watch out for them, it became much easier.

This. Make it more like an actual stealth/camouflage, and not outright invisibility


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As long as nobody can oneshot or chain CC and kill you right after stealth I'm fine with it. It doesn't matter if rogues are squishy and easy to kill, I just don't want to walk around and get killed without seeing it coming

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